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  • mgamgb

    April 22, 2008 3:32 p.m. Apis Mellifera

    I agree that the MGB should have been put to sleep in about 1970. The shape alone of the 928 was light years ahead of anything of that era. 928 owners should be insulted by the suggestion that the car is a classic. Even the old ones look new.

    I think the Locost would fit on either forum. It certainly reproduces the spirit of the original Lotus (like Isle of White Bugeye Sprites of the early 90s). It would also fit on the GRM side since many Locost bodgers hang out there. While it would be appreciated here, most Miatas and users hang out at GRM - go where the audience is.

  • KaptKaos

    April 22, 2008 3:45 p.m. KaptKaos

    Let's up-end this process. Instead of finding what we disagree on, let's decide what we agree are classic attributes and then apply that as a standard.

    I'll go first:

    Good handling.

  • Baxter

    April 22, 2008 3:51 p.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

    Nah, there's plenty of classics with mediocre-to-miserable handling.

    I'd say it's any car that's been out of production for years but people still lust for them. Really -- as is so often the case -- it's all about the lust.

  • Keith

    April 22, 2008 4:01 p.m. Keith

    The Lancia Stratos still looks new - or at least, it shares the "out of time" aspect of the 928. Is it not a classic? Of course it is, although it was designed only two years before the 928.

    I'm not going to take "Locost bodger" as an insult, as you and I hopefully have a different definition of what a "bodger" is.

  • mgamgb

    April 22, 2008 4:24 p.m. Apis Mellifera

    Good handling?

    See Morgan front suspension: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliding_pillar

    Bodge: to build or construct an object using found and/or unrelated parts. "I bodged the brakes on my Sprite using Spitfire rotors and MGB calipers"

    Not to be confused with "botched", which I've also done.

    Something I wanted to say is that Keith made a point with which I completely agree and hits the mark I was aiming at.

    "nobody's going to argue against the B as a classic, while a 928 from the same year is not. Yes, I know the B was an antique design already by this point (dodging the slings and arrows) while the 928 was anything but"

    Exactly. The MGB was firmly anchored to the past, hewn from cast iron by blacksmiths, while the 928 was sent back in a time machine from a future corrupted by alien colors sounds and shapes. That's the difference.

  • Keith

    April 22, 2008 5:20 p.m. Keith

    So how do we introduce more cars into the classic category? In 20 years, will the 928 still be disallowed? Will the Miata? What happens when all the blacksmiths are retired?

    The Mercedes gullwing was sent back from that same corrupted future. Desmodromic valves! Fuel injection! A tube frame! And those doors! But I don't think anyone's going to say it isn't a classic.

    There's a Locost and a Miata in the Readers Rides now :twisted: Disagree with their placement? Say so in the comments.

  • mgamgb

    April 22, 2008 5:38 p.m. Apis Mellifera

    We won't be driving cars in 20 years.

    928 and Miata classic? Probably and the MGB will be the Stanley Steamer of today.

  • Baxter

    April 22, 2008 6:13 p.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

    I had an MGB in '94, and about the only people at the time who considered it a classic were other B owners -- and not all of them.

  • KaptKaos

    April 23, 2008 12:43 a.m. KaptKaos

    Fine, we don't agree on handling. It was just an idea.

    Ok, anything we CAN agree on? Chrome maybe?

  • Bret

    April 23, 2008 2:11 a.m. Bret

    "No Bret, I will not point to the classic, although it is clear to me. It’s simply a trap."

    LOL! Yes in a way it was a loaded question – as they're both 78's... Please don't hate me? ;)

    I can’t tell if you’re just being argumentative or whether you’re insulted by the suggestion that your 928 isn’t a “classic” in relation to CM or whether you really are missing my point.

    At the risk of sounding "Argumentative" I was merely asking you to expound on why you felt the way you do by playing the Devils Advocate. Sure I disagree with your statement (at least about the 928) but I don’t think that means that I have a “chip on my shoulder”. Truth be known I truly wasn’t the least bit insulted – but was rather curious as to your motivations for expressing your seemingly unbending notion of what is or isn’t a classic.

    And yes you seemed so serious in your comments that it was hard to tell if you where simply voicing an honest opinion or if your comments where the result of snobbery. I mean I’ve got my idea of what constitutes a classic just like you & like you – I really don’t care what others think of me and that’s ok.

    My 928 like my MGB where chosen for among other things was their “Redheaded Stepchild” persona. Often times shunned even within their own communities. In the case of the Shark – many of the P-car folks to a large extent don’t understand them & hate ’em outright. Likewise – while the Rubber Bumper Bs are starting to come into their own – there was a time when they where similarly & widely looked down upon by their chrome bumper brethren. So if there’s one thing we can all agree on – car snobs do exist. I just wanted to make sure you weren’t one.

    But the two cars pictured above are my pride & joys and while they’re two totally different driving experiences – I feel that they are indeed classics.

  • mgamgb

    April 23, 2008 7:46 a.m. Apis Mellifera

    Ok, anything we CAN agree on? Chrome maybe?

    Yes. A classic is anything BUT a Miata, 928, or RB MGB. Gosh, I thought we covered this already. j/k

    Chrome?

    You mean like this:

    or this:

    or this?

  • Bret

    April 23, 2008 8:31 a.m. Bret

    Tisk tisk – don’t ya know that back handed diatribe is oh so passé.

    BTW the chrome Bimmer & Benz are burning my eyes. ;)

  • Snakedriver

    April 23, 2008 9:10 a.m. Snakedriver

    Well, I do belive that the closest definition so far is lust.

    My submission: Passion.

    Not a corprate passion, but a personal drive. Chapman, Shelby, Morgan, ect...

    And of course, Us. A guy that loves his Pinto has the passion!

    Leo

  • David

    April 23, 2008 10:40 a.m. David Wallens Editorial Director

    I have my own definition of which cars are suitable for Classic Motorsports, but let's play a game.

    Which cars are classics?

    1964 MGB

    1979 Mazda RX-7

    1993 Alfa Romeo Spider

    1980 MGB LE

    1990 Mazda Miata

    1983 Porsche 911 SC

    2008 Porsche 911 Turbo

    1970 Datsun 240Z

    1976 BMW 2002tii

    1960 Porsche 356B

    1988 Honda CRX Si

    1999 Ferrari 550

    2003 Porsche Boxster S

    1997 Acura Integra Type R

    2002 Bentley Arnage

  • bravenrace

    April 23, 2008 11:12 a.m. bravenrace

    I don't know, but I think those that aren't will be.

  • rconlon

    April 23, 2008 11:29 a.m. rconlon

    David: If I ran a magazine, I would want all those "classics" and their owners to feel welcome. Perhaps the issue is more about the enthusiast and a state of mind than the automobile. If I feel like a "classic motorsport" enthusiast while tooling around in my 1993 Miata with the top down, then so be it. Or, if I am just commuting to work in my economical 1979 Fiat Spider which I am forced to maintain by myself, that is fine as well.

    Cheers Ron

  • mgamgb

    April 23, 2008 11:40 a.m. Apis Mellifera

    IMO, here's a short list of strikes (and these are cumulative) AGAINST a car being a current classic:

    1. The model is still being made (I know, there are exceptions, ie generational models)

    2. The technology is still relevant.

    3. You see them in rush hour traffic.

    4. The body styling is not outdated.

    5. I can't afford to buy brakes for it.

    Again, the more a car answers "yes", the less classic it currently is.

    One day you won't see many Miatas on the street, the engine will be about as cutting edge as the telegraph, and old guys with bushy eyebrows crowded anound one at a car show will cluck their tongues over the "incorrect" brand of spark plugs used or the off-hue Mariner Blue paint. Then it will be a classic.

  • Keith

    April 23, 2008 12:47 p.m. Keith

    To me, it's more about being notable for some reason. A great racing heritage or technological innovation helps a lot, but even being representative of a class of cars can help. I don't think rarity is a prequisite, otherwise the MGB wouldn't make the list.

    On David's list, definite classics for me: 1964 MGB

    1997 Acura Integra Type R (it's the R that counts)

    1990 Mazda Miata (the most popular sports car ever, and with some competition chops)

    1988 Honda CRX Si

    BMW 2002

    Porsche 356B

    1979 RX-7

    1970 Datsun 240Z

    Newer cars that are evolutions or continuations of classics, and fall into an awkward grey area. 1993 Alfa spider

    1983 Porsche 911 SC

    1980 MGB LE

    New and impressive, but not classics. Or not yet, anyhow:

    Ferrari 550 (but it will be, simply due to sheer styling loveliness and the Ferrari badge)

    Bentley Arnage

    2008 Porsche turbo

    2003 Porsche Boxster

    For some, if the car is still in production, that makes it invalid for classic status - as if this somehow negates the car's contribution. The Miata is the perfect example. If it had the lifespan of its cousin the Mercury Capri - dead by 1994 - I don't think anyone would dispute its place in Classic Motorsports. But the car suffered the sin of working well and being popular, so it's been kept around and was updated over the years.

  • April 23, 2008 1:42 p.m. mptreb

    I'd have to say that, at some level, rarity has to play a part. Calling an MGB common is pretty funny, really. I must have seen 20 Miatas today in a 10-mile drive. Not an atypical day, and I couldn't tell you much about any of them, except the grey mazdaspeed that belongs to an acquaintance. I'm half-looking for one, for a friend. But there are so many out there, and so many of the owners are not car people, that they barely even register when I see them. Yes, I have a better idea how many miatas I passed today than how many tauruses; I appreciate miatas, and I respect them. But they're not memorable cars.

    I remember the last fiat and the last MG I saw that weren't mine, and it's been weeks since I saw them. The last time I saw a Seven on the street? 18 years ago this July. Last Lotus Elan I saw on the street? October, 1995, turning right off Route 1 onto Route 52, in Longwood, PA.

    Keith, if your targa miata passed me, I'd take note. But no matter how cool it is (and I respect that car a lot) I doubt I would remember it in 2026.

    So that's my basic idea -- that memorable cars are classics. Which is purely subjective, of course; but find me a definition that won't be.

    Matt

  • Keith

    April 23, 2008 2:23 p.m. Keith

    Well, the MGB is the second most popular sports car ever made- as long as your definition of sports car doesn't include Corvettes or MustangsBut they're certainly not rare cars even if you don't see them on the street every day. I don't see a lot of Ford Aerostars either...

    There's a lot of merit to the memorable idea - although something can be memorable without being classic. Just about any Ferrari, for example.

    When I win the Targa Newfoundland in my Miata and you see it on the street, you'll remember that :)

  • jm1na

    April 23, 2008 11:02 p.m. jm1na

    Absolutely, the Miata is a classic. It brought an affordable, traditional "classic" performance sports car back to the masses. The fact that it caused such a media sensation and drove prices up to insane levels in the dealerships when introduced(like the 240Z and the first RX7) was a testament to the designers filling a void in the market that no one else was willing to gamble on until they saw the success of Mazda's Miata. When a car creates such a stir, that puts it in the classic category in my books.

  • KaptKaos

    April 23, 2008 11:14 p.m. KaptKaos

    Do classics have to be sports cars?

    Funny, I was reminded of John R. Bond's first article when he went to Road & Track back in 1948. "What is a sports car" was the title of his article. I guess not much has been settled in the last 60 years.

  • Bret

    April 23, 2008 11:34 p.m. Bret

    Great point! The water gets kind a murky when talking about classics right? More so when you look at Muscle cars, GTs & of course Sports cars.

  • mattmacklind

    April 23, 2008 11:43 p.m. mattmacklind

    Defining the classic car is a tough one, especially with all of the interesting cars of the last few decades. Its sort of like antiques; there is a difference between an antique and something thats just old.

    I've put a lot of thought into why and its difficult to articulate. But, when I think of "newer" cars that are classics I would include the early Miata.

    On the same list I would put the Mitsu/Dodge Starion/Conquest, but not the Daytona, the 944 but not the 968, the 928, but oddly I can't find a reason to say a newer 911 or Boxster is a classic, its just a Porsche, the 3rd gen Rx7 and predecessors, the Supra, the VW GTI and Scirocco, and even the old Eagle 4x4 hatchbacks and wagons of the 80's.

    But here is where there is a line, just like the difference between an antique desk and an old desk. Some cars are vintage and classic, and some are just vintage, they represent a time and place in automotive design and engineering that is worth remembering but not particularly memorable. It may be worth remembering because of what was happenning at the time or because of what we were doing at the time they were made. Its like last summer, I spotted one of those weird Oldsmobile Omega quasi-hatchbacks of the 80's. It was absolutely mint, no dings, perfect paint, all original as I remembered them.

    Was this a classic car? No, but it was old and well looked after, it was what I would call a vintage car. I thought it was cool as hell, too. But, its just not a classic car.

    Anyway, bottom line, I suggest that the definition of classic car be liberally constued for the purposes of the magazine and this board. I can't see any benefit in limiting it, and I know everyone here loves cars and can appreciate all kinds of them, even the Omega...It looked just like the Citation... Photobucket

  • Baxter

    April 24, 2008 7:10 a.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

    I'm sticking with lust. Lust is the answer.

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